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Just to make this clear then... What are ''b-sides'' and what are demos from LP? Surely there is a difference. For example, I refuse to call My December or stuff like Blackbirds a 'demo'. How many b-sides does LP have?? I have these so far

 

High Voltage (Reprise)

My December

No Roads Left

Blackbirds

Not Alone

Issho Ni

A.06 (Because A-Six is on LPU9 which is the demo version of A.06)

It's a pretty grey area with a band like LP that uses the terms "b-side" and "demo" interchangeably, but generally what I consider a b-side is a fully finished song that wasn't given a proper release at the time of its completion (usually in the form of songs that were recorded for albums but ultimately left off the final tracklistings, like High Voltage and No Roads Left). I consider something a demo when it was ultimately scrapped prior to reaching the point where you could call it "fully finished," which can include songs that were written/recorded during an album's production but abandoned before the final tracking phase, or earlier recordings of songs that were ultimately finalized (both being things we've gotten a LOT of on the past few LPU CDs).

It's a pretty grey area with a band like LP that uses the terms "b-side" and "demo" interchangeably, but generally what I consider a b-side is a fully finished song that wasn't given a proper release at the time of its completion (usually in the form of songs that were recorded for albums but ultimately left off the final tracklistings, like High Voltage and No Roads Left). I consider something a demo when it was ultimately scrapped prior to reaching the point where you could call it "fully finished," which can include songs that were written/recorded during an album's production but abandoned before the final tracking phase, or earlier recordings of songs that were ultimately finalized (both being things we've gotten a LOT of on the past few LPU CDs).

So what about stuff like ATL, What We Don't Know, I Have Not Begun, Blue, Slip, So Far Away, Pretend To Be? Cuz I don't count the instrumental shit on the LPU albums. Only the demos with complete vocals and complete music.

Edited by Geki

So what about stuff like ATL, What We Don't Know, I Have Not Begun, Blue, Slip, So Far Away, Pretend To Be? Cuz I don't count the instrumental shit on the LPU albums. Only the demos with complete vocals and complete music.

my short answer would be "yes". my longer answer is "no".

 

the term B-side typically refers to the track on the other ("B") side of a vinyl single (for example, High Voltage and My December on the OSC single). these could either be tracks that the band wouldn't be good as single, but might give a flavour of the rest of the album to encourage you to buy that afterwards (maybe they'd use By Myself or Forgotten?) or tracks that didn't make it onto the album (High Voltage & My December). I would call these tracks "traditional" B-Sides since they were released in a way that concurs with the standard definition of the term.

 

the problem with using the term now, is that both vinyls and the single are not the dominant means of distributing music and the game has changed. No Roads Left was not released on a single as a b-side, but it was released on a special edition of the album. it does not stick to the old "rules" of the b-side (a finished track released on a single to encourage casual fans to buy the album), the gesture is still there, but it is being used differently (a finished track released to encourage hardcore fans to buy the special edition). Blackbirds too falls in this category - completing the game purely for a new track, would only happen if you were more than just a casual fan.

Blackbirds, No Roads Left are b-sides, but they demonstrate the changes to the marketing methods used by the industry. while they're not b-sides in a traditional sense, they're still released to make a bit of money!

 

obviously, the LPU system is arguably part of the above - it's a means to get hardcore fans to pay for extra material. and from Astat's description, the tracks you list could be considered "b-sides", since all these songs were dropped from the final processes of the album. however, there are problems with considering LPU-released material to be b-sides as "finished" tracks, purely by the nature of what the LPU CDs are offering.

LPU is meant to offer the hardcore fans an small insight into the band's writing and recording process, and while some of things like Across The Line, What We Don't Know, I Have Not Begun, Blue, Slip, So Far Away (Pretend To Be - this wasn't LPU was it?) may sound finished to us, it is impossible for us to tell if those exact versions would have been used on the album if selected - the song structure, the lyrics, a guitar part, a sample here and there - could all have been changed, and the track would be re-recorded, and thus these would be demos. because these songs were dropped from any public release they can't be called b-sides because we simply don't know if they are finished! the only exception I would have to this are the tracks that were not re-worked after their release on the HT E.P. reissue - these songs were all clearly in a "finished" state as they were already released as an older EP, but they are not b-sides to anything else because again, they had already been released in their own right. things like SuperXero, Untitled (etc.) became demos when the band revisited them.

if you consider the LPU to be something that's not for public release and ... well ... underground, you could safely call any tracks released via this system "demos". but then again, anyone can buy into the LPU, and these tracks are an incentive to hardcore fans to pay for additional content (Like the "modern-style" b-sides described above). this gets even more complicated if we start to ask why the band released 'Songs From The Underground' and 'A Decade Underground', since these EPs promote the LPU itself, not any actual album (let's not go down this path of discussion...)

 

as Astat said, the grey are here is ridiculously murky (this has been difficult to write clearly!). i just thought this would be something interesting to bear in mind - those tracks that seem "finished" are finished to us (and therefore B-sides to the respective album) but we can't really pass judgement on their status as demo or b-side since we don't know what additional work might have gone into a track if it was to be put on a publicly released, studio album.

 

personally, I don't call any of these tracks B-sides, because I consider to them to be songs from an album's "era". but hell, if you want to call them b-sides, who the hell is going to stop you!? :lol:

So what about stuff like ATL, What We Don't Know, I Have Not Begun, Blue, Slip, So Far Away, Pretend To Be? Cuz I don't count the instrumental shit on the LPU albums. Only the demos with complete vocals and complete music.

Across the Line/What We Don't know are MTM b-sides. I Have Not Begun, I guess you could TECHNICALLY call an ATS b-side based on when it was recorded, although I'm not sure if that was ever really in consideration for the album (I think it was more of a situation where Mike wanted to properly record the verses from his guest appearance with The Roots). Blue, Slip, and So Far Away would all be HT demos (as would any other stuff from that era - the only true HT b-side is High Voltage).

 

Pretend to Be is one of those songs that I prefer to just consider a standalone track (New Divide, Not Alone, Issho Ni, My December, and a few others would fall into this category too). If they had released the "seed" version from the MTM sessions, that would obviously be a demo, but they randomly finished the song a year after the album was done and stuck it on an LPU CD. It's kind of like how Tinfoil/Powerless were written during the ATS sessions but not released until after they were updated for Living Things, just that in this case the "updated version" wasn't released on a studio album.

Across the Line/What We Don't know are MTM b-sides. I Have Not Begun, I guess you could TECHNICALLY call an ATS b-side based on when it was recorded, although I'm not sure if that was ever really in consideration for the album (I think it was more of a situation where Mike wanted to properly record the verses from his guest appearance with The Roots). Blue, Slip, and So Far Away would all be HT demos (as would any other stuff from that era - the only true HT b-side is High Voltage).

 

Pretend to Be is one of those songs that I prefer to just consider a standalone track (New Divide, Not Alone, Issho Ni, My December, and a few others would fall into this category too). If they had released the "seed" version from the MTM sessions, that would obviously be a demo, but they randomly finished the song a year after the album was done and stuck it on an LPU CD. It's kind of like how Tinfoil/Powerless were written during the ATS sessions but not released until after they were updated for Living Things, just that in this case the "updated version" wasn't released on a studio album.

Is Blackbirds and Not Alone b-sides?

I know Astat has told me that ''Sono'' from the Stagelight Demos was not a LOATR early demo, but it was. I just watched the making of MTM and you can hear Mike singing ''sono'' over Fear!!!!

Isnt that like saying POA is a WTCFM demo because they both have the line "forfeit the game"?

Isnt that like saying POA is a WTCFM demo because they both have the line "forfeit the game"?

No because if you've actually heard Sono from Stagelight, it is very reminiscent to Fear/LOATR. It was probably the original seed for it. And with MTM, Rick wanted LP to develop vocals on a seed right away, before any real work was done to it, which the melody ''Sono'' probably was used, which is shown on Making of MTM. A lot of the Stagelight demos I feel are a bunch of seeds from MTM/ATS/LT. It's hard to tell from what demos they are from, but some you can almost guess, it's kind of cool.

I know Astat has told me that ''Sono'' from the Stagelight Demos was not a LOATR early demo, but it was. I just watched the making of MTM and you can hear Mike singing ''sono'' over Fear!!!!

You're attributing a seed title to a particular song because Mike's gibberish lyrics happen to have a couple syllables in it that sound like "sono?" Seriously? :lol:

 

Sono is at a tempo of 140 BPM. Leave Out All the Rest is at a tempo of 80 BPM. Shit like that doesn't change once an idea gets to the "seed" stage without completely scrapping the idea and starting from scratch.

 

The keyboard loop from Sono does follow the same progression as LOATR in the same key. But I don't see how anybody could listen to the Sono percussion samples and think for a second that the two songs are related.

Edited by Astat

The keyboard loop from Sono does follow the same progression as LOATR in the same key. But I don't see how anybody could listen to the Sono percussion samples and think for a second that the two songs are related.

Idk, to me, they sounded alike. Plus why would Mike sing sono over it.

Is there any way we can get a rough time estimate of the Hybrid Theory 7 track, 8 track and 9 track demo CDs? Is there no way to figure that out? No insert or anything mentions any date? I find it weird we have just the 6 track date but not a date for the other 3.

Is there any way we can get a rough time estimate of the Hybrid Theory 7 track, 8 track and 9 track demo CDs? Is there no way to figure that out? No insert or anything mentions any date? I find it weird we have just the 6 track date but not a date for the other 3.

8-track: 1999

7-track: February 2000

9-track: February 11, 2000

6-track: May 8, 2000

And the Hybrid Theory Unmastered was May 7, 2000?

 

How is that possible if the 6 track demos were on a CD the day after and they were so different? I guess the timing doesn't really matter then, lol

Plaster: June 2, 2000

Studio Finals: July 5, 2000

  • 3 weeks later...

Is my list of b-sides with year dates accurate guys? I didn't add demos of songs that made it onto albums and stuff.

 

1997

Coal

Fuse

Reading My Eyes

 

1998

Slip

Blue

So Far Away

 

1999

Dedicated

She Couldn't

 

2000

High Voltage

My December

 

2001

No B-sides

 

2002

Standing In The Middle

A.06

Unfortunate

Halo

Soundtrack

Program

Broken Foot

Pepper

Ominous

 

2003

No B-Sides

 

2004

No B-Sides

 

2005

Divided

 

2006

Announcement Service Public

Qwerty

Pale

YO

Homecoming

Clarity

Asbestos

Bunker

Debris

 

2007

No Roads Left

Across The Line

What We Don't Know

Blackbirds

 

2008

Lockjaw

Pretend To Be

 

2009

I Have Not Begun

New Divide

 

2010

Not Alone

 

2011

Issho Ni

 

2012

Complimentary

Space Station

Bruiser

Standing In The Middle was 2001 or 2002, I'd say 2002 for that as well. Divided I still believe is the song they worked on for the Machine Shop mixtape CD. They were barely in the studio in 2005, with DBS (then Snow White Tan) and FM work/touring going on.

 

Complimentary isn't a b-side. I know I put it with those Stagelight Demos but the difference is that Mike made that JUST for OpenLabs. And did it after all LP studio work was done w/ LIVING THINGS. It was pretty recent. Bruiser and Space Station are LT/ATS era demos. Bruiser certainly is from the ATS period because the shit sounds exactly like Wretches lol. They need Wretches w/ Bruiser 20-25 second jam intro :P

 

I wouldn't count the instrumentals w/ no vocals (besides Pale) as b-sides, I'd count them as demos.

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