1998/1999 Demo Hypothesis

[hahninator]

When I was listening to the Rhinestone (Zomba Sampler) version, it reminded me that the version on the Hybrid Theory 9 track has the same instrumental as we knew, just with new vocals by Chester.

 

What about Esaul? We have what, 4 versions of that song? So hard to keep up with these versions. Are they all the exact same instrumental just with four different vocal takes?

Anyway I think it's likely that the Xero version of Esaul with Mark that they recorded had the instrumental reused exactly, and it's what turned into the Esaul with Chester. Same thing that happened with Rhinestone. Also wouldn't surprise me if they had Chester re-record vocals for another Xero song or two since the audition tape has more than two songs. Perhaps Reading My Eyes or something else had him re-record vocals. Pictureboard, probably.

 

The oldest Esaul I would assume is the LPU 11 one, the one they were rehearsing in Frat Party. Chester's vocals sound young as hell there. 

Random: The LPU 12 version and Hybrid Theory 9 track demo for Rhinestone are the exact same, right?

[Ninja]

I would definitely say that the LPU11 Esaul is the oldest recording we have of the song. The Frat Party one was basically live in Mike’s apartment so I wouldn’t really call that a studio recording. It’s basically like the Third Encore performances but the ghetto version. Haha. 
 

Yes, the LPU12 Rhinestone is the same as the 9 track version, just with better volume, etc. 

 

The demo tape that Chester was sent probably had what you said it did. Rhinestone, Esaul, probably RME and Pictureboard. Could have also been Fuse, I could see them doing better versions of those with Mark just like they did for Rhinestone. But probably Pictureboard. What other songs had Mark on writing credits besides those? Slip did right? I think the rest of the stuff from that era was written with Chester. 

[michalangelo]

Here's the graphic diagram for better visualisation. Are we missing any other version? (besides the live of course)

[Ninja]

3 minutes ago, michalangelo said:

Here's the graphic diagram for better visualisation. Are we missing any other version? (besides the live of course)

Don’t see the point in adding the remix since it’s a remix and not the song but cool.

[michalangelo]

12 minutes ago, Ninja said:

Don’t see the point in adding the remix since it’s a remix and not the song but cool.

That's just for my purposes. Here's the proper thread image:

 

[Ninja]

7 minutes ago, michalangelo said:

That's just for my purposes. Here's the proper thread image:

 

Thanks this is really cool to have. We need this for each HT demo. 

[PeppePark]

31 minutes ago, michalangelo said:

That's just for my purposes. Here's the proper thread image:

 

Wow, I love these diagrams, great job!

Also, pretty cool that the version of Esaul we got with the LPU is the oldest!

[Astat]

Generally speaking, it seemed like once they had an instrumental recording of any of those early demos, they kept that as the basic track under all subsequent versions of the song and would mostly just record new vocals as the lyrics went through revisions. They'd overdub different parts as needed, depending on when the actual song arrangements changed and stuff like that, but it was pretty rare for them to record an entirely new demo version of a song without using anything from the previous version. Like if you compare the various versions of Esaul, Super Xero, etc., they primarily use all the same beats and guitar tracks. The 9-track demo Rhinestone and the LPU 12 Forgotten demo are the exact same track as far as I can tell, although it's been a while since I compared them.

I'm assuming there's an equivalent version of the LPU 11 Esaul with Mark Wakefield on vocals, which was probably recorded around the same time as the Zomba sampler version of Rhinestone. The same is probably true of stuff like Pictureboard and Slip. I think the band started the process of doing demos for an album in '98 and it carried through the whole process of Mark leaving and them auditioning new singers, then the first stuff they did with Chester was just dubbing him over tracks they already had.

So realistically for any of the pre-HT demos you could have different elements within one take of a song that date between sometime in 1998 and early 2000. I think that might actually be the source of some of Mike's "1998 vs. 1999" confusion, because some of the tracks we have with Chester were probably started in 1998, he just put his vocals on them later.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Astat

[sordomuda]

8 hours ago, michalangelo said:

That's just for my purposes. Here's the proper thread image:

 

Wow great job and a great thread tbh. Love informative topics like that. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by sordomuda

[michalangelo]

11 hours ago, Astat said:

Generally speaking, it seemed like once they had an instrumental recording of any of those early demos, they kept that as the basic track under all subsequent versions of the song and would mostly just record new vocals as the lyrics went through revisions. They'd overdub different parts as needed, depending on when the actual song arrangements changed and stuff like that, but it was pretty rare for them to record an entirely new demo version of a song without using anything from the previous version. Like if you compare the various versions of Esaul, Super Xero, etc., they primarily use all the same beats and guitar tracks. The 9-track demo Rhinestone and the LPU 12 Forgotten demo are the exact same track as far as I can tell, although it's been a while since I compared them.

I'm assuming there's an equivalent version of the LPU 11 Esaul with Mark Wakefield on vocals, which was probably recorded around the same time as the Zomba sampler version of Rhinestone. The same is probably true of stuff like Pictureboard and Slip. I think the band started the process of doing demos for an album in '98 and it carried through the whole process of Mark leaving and them auditioning new singers, then the first stuff they did with Chester was just dubbing him over tracks they already had.

So realistically for any of the pre-HT demos you could have different elements within one take of a song that date between sometime in 1998 and early 2000. I think that might actually be the source of some of Mike's "1998 vs. 1999" confusion, because some of the tracks we have with Chester were probably started in 1998, he just put his vocals on them later.

Question is should we add another instrumental (early version?) to the diagram or just leave it as it is? (can add any other media Rhinestone and Esaul are on) And then there is the final instrumental. I created the diagrams just like the info in linkinpedia states, but I assume these visualisations are still a work in progress until we get them right. IMHO this is a better form of showing how each song transformed over the years than the text version. There is an option to add some notes next to the diagrams as well if needed.

Edited April 29, 2020 by michalangelo

[JZLP-NaughtyNottingham]

Michaelangelo da paint masta. 

[michalangelo]

35 minutes ago, JZLP said:

Michaelangelo da paint masta. 

That's not paint actually. These are database diagrams 🧐

[Trumtram]

This might be random and loosely connected to the topic, but I have found another inconsistency when it comes to LP talking about their past. I watched some interviews the last couple of days and one thing that came up was how Chester never really screamed before HT and that this element came into place during the making of HT (roughly summarized). However there is the demo of "Part of me" which would like to disagree on that.
Just a minor thing, I know, but wanted to add it somewhere nonetheless ;).

[kiq fLP]

But

1 hour ago, Trumtram said:

This might be random and loosely connected to the topic, but I have found another inconsistency when it comes to LP talking about their past. I watched some interviews the last couple of days and one thing that came up was how Chester never really screamed before HT and that this element came into place during the making of HT (roughly summarized). However there is the demo of "Part of me" which would like to disagree on that.
Just a minor thing, I know, but wanted to add it somewhere nonetheless ;).

But this demo of Part of Me were made after the EP version, right? Maybe it was one of the songs from the "bunch" which Chester started to scream in HT process.

[SerioDrew]

I think its safe to assume that this is indeed true for at least a couple songs. Most probable songs imo would be Pictureboard, Slip, Esaul, Reading My Eyes and Stick N Move. Its safe to assume these are songs that the band worked both as late Xero and early HT. Another thing is that the 3 Rapology songs were released in 1998 which would not be that far chronologically from early HT era (especially Fiends). But lets take intro consideration the assumption that they were indeed working on an album or an EP at that time (which is very possible considering they put out an EP within less than a year Chester joined). If they did so, I dont think they would "spend" album tracks in compilations, so I think Rapology songs would be left outs anyway and that they stopped working on them after their release. There is also the Xero Reborn song, which if actually a real demo, was worked on by both Xero and HT since Chester knew it, so thats another possible one. From the Xero Tape i think only Fuse was stopped been worked on before Chester joined, as far as we know at least. Most of these are just my ideas and opinion and not actual facts.

[LPsMart]

On 6/7/2020 at 11:26 AM, SerioDrew said:

I think its safe to assume that this is indeed true for at least a couple songs. Most probable songs imo would be Pictureboard, Slip, Esaul, Reading My Eyes and Stick N Move. Its safe to assume these are songs that the band worked both as late Xero and early HT. Another thing is that the 3 Rapology songs were released in 1998 which would not be that far chronologically from early HT era (especially Fiends). But lets take intro consideration the assumption that they were indeed working on an album or an EP at that time (which is very possible considering they put out an EP within less than a year Chester joined). If they did so, I dont think they would "spend" album tracks in compilations, so I think Rapology songs would be left outs anyway and that they stopped working on them after their release. There is also the Xero Reborn song, which if actually a real demo, was worked on by both Xero and HT since Chester knew it, so thats another possible one. From the Xero Tape i think only Fuse was stopped been worked on before Chester joined, as far as we know at least. Most of these are just my ideas and opinion and not actual facts.

Yeah and they obviously worked on Rhinestone

 

I don't think the Rapology songs matter at this point - they were Mike only - maybe with assistance by Joe, they just labeled it as Xero for the time being (would even make sense if the band was already HT)

 

Also Chester didn't know Xero Reborn, so that makes that impossible to have happened.

[kiq fLP]

24 minutes ago, LPsMart said:

Yeah and they obviously worked on Rhinestone

 

I don't think the Rapology songs matter at this point - they were Mike only - maybe with assistance by Joe, they just labeled it as Xero for the time being (would even make sense if the band was already HT)

 

Also Chester didn't know Xero Reborn, so that makes that impossible to have happened.

 

Maybe it's the case of Closing, but Mark does backing vocals in Fiends and Joe is mentioned in both Drop and Closing tracks (in the last, as Artofficial). Yes, probably all of them are leftovers or at least weren't taken in consideration to be worked with Chester, but Fiends is a legitimate Xero song, not only labeled as it (Drop wasn't labeled as Xero afterall).

[Zoom]

On 4/29/2020 at 5:27 AM, michalangelo said:

 

 

I thinks, the website (mp3.com) demo was recorded at 1999 (not at 2000), as the '2-track CD' demo. These demos are almost identical, plus in 1999 the website already existed (see CD scan: https://lpcatalog.com/item/hybrid-theory/promo/2-track-demo).

My edits for the demos and chronology:

http://linkinpedia.com/index.php?title=A_Place_For_My_Head#Versions

(how I compared these demos: downmix 2 tracks to mono via foobar2000 and special DSP, open and past mono encodes in "Multitrack" mode via Adobe Audition 3.0, synchronized audio tracks based on waves, spread project tracks across the channels via 'balance')

Edited July 22, 2020 by Zoom

[lpliveusername]

7 hours ago, Zoom said:

I thinks, the website (mp3.com) demo was recorded at 1999 (not at 2000), as the '2-track CD' demo. These demos are almost identical, plus in 1999 the website already existed (see CD scan: https://lpcatalog.com/item/hybrid-theory/promo/2-track-demo).

My edits for the demos and chronology:

http://linkinpedia.com/index.php?title=A_Place_For_My_Head#Versions

Don't know how I didn't notice that before, but the "stay away bridge" in the website demo is wrong. It is similar to the 2-track demo version where Chester screams "go away."

 

 

I think we could never figure out when exactly the domain hybridtheory.com was registered (like we did with linkinpark.com), but the site being online in 1999 doesn't really mean the songs were already there.

 

The "stay away" bridge is featured in the January 2000 CD but if you pay attention to Lockout, which was filmed in February 2000, they were rehearsing the 2-track demo / website version with the "go away" bridge, which is the one they kept in the final song. It would make no sense for them to play this version unless it was the current version at the time.

 

 

I'm not saying what we have is 100% correct though. For all we know, the version in the 9-track demo could predate both the 2-track demo and website versions. Or maybe they came up with the 9-track demo version after the 2-track demo version but didn't like it and decided to go back to the previous version. Who knows?

[Zoom]

lpliveusername

Firstly, I found the approximate registration time of Hybrid Theory band on mp3.com - ~october-november 1999

 

http://web.archive.org/web/19991012152936/http://mp3.com/listings/alphabetic/h9.html


http://web.archive.org/web/19991128052711/http://www.mp3.com/listings/alphabetic/h10.html


Secondly, the '2-track CD' (1999) contained the same tracks:
https://web.archive.org/web/20021030130736/http://www.hybridtheory.com/mp3.htm


Thirdly, By Myself '2-track CD' demo and By Myself 'website (mp3.com)' demo are absolutely similar mixes.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Zoom

[lpliveusername]

22 hours ago, lpliveusername said:

I think we could never figure out when exactly the domain hybridtheory.com was registered (like we did with linkinpark.com), but the site being online in 1999 doesn't really mean the songs were already there.

Checked Linkinpedia and turns out we do know. It was registered on August 3, 1999.

 

3 hours ago, Zoom said:

Firstly, I found the approximate registration time of Hybrid Theory band on mp3.com - ~october-november 1999

 

http://web.archive.org/web/19991012152936/http://mp3.com/listings/alphabetic/h9.html

http://web.archive.org/web/19991128052711/http://www.mp3.com/listings/alphabetic/h10.html

That's interesting. November 1999 is when the band reportedly started working with Warner.

 

3 hours ago, Zoom said:

Secondly, the '2-track CD' (1999) contained the same tracks:
https://web.archive.org/web/20021030130736/http://www.hybridtheory.com/mp3.htm

Thirdly, By Myself '2-track CD' demo and By Myself 'website (mp3.com)' demo are absolutely similar mixes.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. Still doesn't change the fact they were performing this version in February 2000.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the 9-track demo version was just a collection of old demos Jeff Blue had lying around instead of a collection of the most recent versions of those songs. Maybe it was recorded prior to the 2-track CD. So:

LPU 11 -> 9-track -> 2-track -> website -> studio finals

[Zoom]

lpliveusername

How did you find the date of this performance? Did you read it on the receipt (have a better video source)?

 

I found the location myself in half an hour using Google.

 

The nearest studio is located at 6330 Hollywood Blvd.

[lpliveusername]

5 hours ago, Zoom said:

How did you find the date of this performance? Did you read it on the receipt (have a better video source)?

I found the location myself in half an hour using Google.

The nearest studio is located at 6330 Hollywood Blvd.

We got the date from Marc Ostrick. He was the creator of Lockout and still has the original tapes. We also interviewed him for linkinpark:br once. All the information we have about Lockout came from him:

http://linkinpedia.com/index.php?title=Lockout

 

The studio's website is linked on this Linkinpedia page. We also have a business card for the person who managed the studio at the time. It was called "Hollywood Rehearsal Studios" in the card.

[NJPLP]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:27 PM, michalangelo said:

That's just for my purposes. Here's the proper thread image:

 

You may have to update this with the 1998 Xero version of "Esaul".

Edited August 9, 2022 by NJPLP