Disclaimer: This interview may not be reproduced in part or in entirety without the written consent of LPLive.net.

 

 

During the first year of Linkin Park's official fan club, the LP Underground, Dave Farrell and Rob Bourdon took some time to write about the origins of the band in the newsletters that were sent out to fans throughout 2002. On Issue #2 Rob details how he was playing for his highschool's jazz band when he got an invitation to audition for a newly formed band named Karma. The bass player for this band then introduced him to Mark Wakefield and Brad Delson, giving origin to Relative Degree. Through his new bandmates he met Mike Shinoda and the rest is history.

 

For several years the name of the bass player for Karma and Relative Degree remained a mystery... Until Dave Garrett, the bassist himself, decided to present himself to the LPLive community in early February 2022. We took this opportunity to ask him some questions that were still unclear about the origins of Linkin Park. You can watch the full-length interview or read the transcription below.

 

 

LPLive: Back in 2014 MTV released a documentary called The Ride covering Linkin Park's entire career up to that point. According to them, Mark Wakefield was the singer for Relative Degree. This was the first and only time we've ever heard that. Is that correct?

 

Yeah, absolutely. Mark was definitely the singer for Relative Degree.

 

LPLive: How did you first meet and get involved with the guys from Linkin Park?

 

I'd known Rob through high school. Both of us went to Calabasas High together. So I'd known him through high school. I was a couple years older and I played in some bands. Played in this little band called Karma which wasn't much of anything. I mean, we never even played a show, it was more of a… just like a jam band. So, you know, I knew Rob for a while. I left for college, went to Cal. State Long Beach, and I was actually giving a girl in the dorms bass lessons and Mark Wakefield heard me playing and he was asking me if I wanted to get together and jam sometime. At that time we played in Long Beach for a little bit - it wasn't really the sound we were looking for - with some of the people that we kind of jammed with. And so I told them about Rob who was just an awesome drummer. And, you know, he was from Agoura, so it's funny like him and Brad and Mike all went to Agoura High and we went to Calabasas. And Calabasas was kind of big in the music scene too. We were… it felt like little brothers to like Incubus and Hoobastank and those guys coming out of there. So, you know, we eventually got together. Mark introduced me to Brad, I introduced them to Rob and we jelled right away. I mean, it's just a fun group of guys. The sense of humor that they had and just… we had a really good time playing. So eventually we got to the point where we were… because I was going to, you know, both Mark and I had classes basically Monday through Thursday. So we leave right after class on Thursday and play Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and then head back to Long Beach. So we did that for quite a while, for about a year anyway. So yeah, that's how we got to know each other.

 

Note: Dave recalls going to highschool parties and watching Mike freestyle with friends.

 

LPLive: Last year Mike said Mark and Brad were together in a rap metal band called The Pricks. Do you remember who else was in that band? Was it in any way related to Relative Degree?

 

No, it wasn't related at all. I didn't know much about that band. Assuming it happened before, but yeah, I didn't really know much about The Pricks.

 

LPLive: There's an old unauthorized documentary called Conspiracy Theory where a man named Mike Giangreco says he was Brad's boss at The Roxy and The Whisky and worked with his band The Pricks. Did he work with Relative Degree or Xero too?

 

Not really work, no. I remember that guy's name kind of coming up from like when we were trying to sell the tickets and stuff because for any like new bands out there, whenever, especially if you're trying to play a place like The Roxy, you have to sell a certain amount of tickets for them to even consider letting you do it. So I know we had been in touch with that guy. Mainly Brad. But yeah, that's all I really know about that guy.

 

 

LPLive: Rob said he actually auditioned for another band of yours called Karma before you guys started Relative Degree but he was rejected. Any particular reason for that?

 

No. And honestly I can't imagine that. You know, 25 years ago is a long time so my memory's a little fuzzy on some of this stuff, but I think that was Jeff Blue who said that. I don't know if Rob ever mentioned that he didn't get accepted into the band because I don't remember ever rejecting Rob. I mean, the guy was one of the best drummers. The only concern I think we had at first was… he was a drummer for the high school jazz band and just if he'd fit in from a style standpoint. But I mean, dude, the guy's an amazing drummer. I mean, he was probably one of the best musicians out of the whole group, you know?

 

LPLive: Did he actually end up playing with Karma?

 

Yeah. It was more jamming. It's funny when people ask about, like, names and songs and stuff like that. So much of the stuff we did was… Someone would put down a, you know, whether it's a bass line or drumline or something. Something that we kind of felt and just start playing and start building onto it. So we didn't have this super formal way to write music back then, it was just kind of jamming. But Karma was pretty much a jam band if anything. Never played a show or anything.

 

Note: Karma consisted of Dave Garrett (bass), Rob Bourdon (drums), Steve Hever (guitar) and Josh Dulay (vocals). They also jammed with a guitarist named Eliot for a while.

 

LPLive: What type of music did Karma play?

 

It was kind of alternative. I don't know the best way to describe. It was definitely raw just to say the least.

 

LPLive: For how long were they active?

 

I don't know, maybe six months to… I mean, we jammed a lot because… You know, and time kind of gets screwed up a little bit. Just because back in high school you only get to play so much together. I played water polo back at the time so it was kind of like between water polo and in the band practicing and stuff, but I probably say like six months-ish.

 

Note: Karma recorded demos on cassette during this period.

 

LPLive: What's the story behind the "Relative Degree" name?

 

Mark was really the guy who came up with it. I think it was just like the cool idea of like “Hey, this is one degree away from like boiling point.” Because looking at the bands that we really followed and listened to a lot, there was a lot of this pent up, just like angst, almost. And I think sometimes just having that little bit just to push you over the top enough to go to boiling was kind of really the idea behind the band's name.

 

LPLive: How would you describe Relative Degree's sound?

 

I remember this is like ‘95. So, you know, 311 was… I mean, that album Music was probably on replay in the car stereo non-stop. So I'd say like 311. At the end we kind of threw in some horns, so it's funny that for our show at The Roxy we had horns. But they hadn't been in the band up until just a little bit before we played the show because I wouldn't say ska was kind of our thing. But No Doubt was huge back then, you know? So you had… and honestly I think it was in ‘95. System of a Down, I remember seeing No Doubt and System of a Down at The Troubadour and kind of drawn a blank of exactly when that was, but like that kind of sound. But definitely influence of like Deftones for sure. We were trying to kind of mold a couple genres together of what we liked.

 

 

LPLive: In some of the photos you sent us there are two saxophone players on the stage with you guys. Who are they? Were they official band members?

 

Yeah, they came in really late. And I apologize if they see this, I honestly don't remember the names. It was pretty late on that they came in to just like prep for us. Rob knew them through jazz. They were definitely musicians, so they were able to pick up really quick from what we wrote. So that… they were kind of added into it. It wasn't like we had horns the whole time.

 

LPLive: During MTV's The Ride we also saw for the first time a flyer for the Relative Degree show at The Roxy. Who designed that?

 

Mark. So he was going to Cal. State Long Beach for art. I mean, the guy was just super talented. I think that's really kind of like how him and Mike and Joe gelled. They're all artists. Just super talented. So he put it together. A lot of those early flyers, that was him.

 

LPLive: Where did Relative Degree rehearse?

 

Good old Rob Bourdon's mom's house. So, Calabasas High, he lived not even a block, it was like a street away from the high school. And man, she was a saint because imagine all these kids playing at your house four days a week, and we love practicing. We were practicing two to three hours a day when we were playing for like four days a week. So god bless her soul. She was amazing. Without her, honestly, Linkin Park today probably wouldn't have existed the way it did, because she had a lot of patience.

 

LPLive: We've heard from a few sources that Mike Shinoda collaborated with Relative Degree by creating samples for their songs. Did you guys work on music and record at Mike's studio in his bedroom?

 

No, we didn't necessarily do, like, recording back then. Yet anyway. So the only recording we did… and man, when all this stuff happened I was trying to find, because I have a couple tracks, like digital stuff. And you gotta remember back then… And it kind of stinks that technology wasn't how it is today because we probably would have captured a whole lot more stuff. But Brad had a neighbor down the street that had this cool little recording studio in his garage. So I know we put together like a little DAT for it, but I have a faintest idea where that thing is. But as far as that, no. No other, really, recording. Mike would come over quite a bit, especially at the end. He was almost like a quasi member of the band. We definitely want to collaborate with him and we had a lot of fun doing some jam sessions and stuff together too when we were Relative Degree.

 

Note: Towards the end of Relative Degree, Mike brought Joe Hahn to watch a couple of their rehearsals, but Joe never played with them.

 

LPLive: Do you have any recordings (demos, rehearsals or live) from Relative Degree?

 

No. And even the show at The Roxy… And it was pretty lousy quality for sure. So I saw after the show. I think it was even Mark or Brad, they - I'm pretty sure it was Mark though - there was a video camcorder that had captured it and… But the audio quality from this little camcorder just stunk. So I think he kind of held on to it. I think Mark, and probably Brad too, kind of saw a little bigger picture than I did. For me it was just more of the moment of like “Man, this is cool, we're playing The Roxy.” I love music, it was something I've been playing bass since I was like 13 years old. But it was also something that I didn't ever think like “We could go big” type of thing, you know? So I was looking at just kind of like having fun, where I think letting some of this stuff out… Mark was probably a little bit more strategic with… Just because he definitely liked things sounding a certain way and didn't want his stuff out there, which I totally respect.

 

 

LPLive: What do you remember about the show at The Roxy? Would you say it was a successful gig?

 

Oh dude, it was. For us I mean. It's funny you see the comments and the stuff they said and said “Hey, it was success.” Like, the place was packed. I just remember when we did the sound test and just kind of like waiting for the show, like, the nerves. Mark sometimes would, if he got like super nervous sometimes, would get things going on with his throat. So it was pretty… like a lot of anxiety going into it. Again, we had been practicing a ton just to kind of be ready for it. Imagine like a year of playing stuff to… and obviously the songs morphed and all that stuff, into what we ultimately came up with. But I remember kind of going up to the top, behind the stage and this small little window that you can look out onto the stage and just all of us kind of peeking out there and being like “Oh my god, this is amazing.” So it's cool to definitely experience that with those guys. It's something I'm always gonna cherish.

 

LPLive: You mentioned you didn't play any live shows with Karma and you rehearsed for that one for a long time. So was that your first experience with a big gig?

 

Yeah, definitely. For sure a gig like that. I mean, you gotta think when you and your kids, growing up, the number of bands that you gotta see it. Either because we'd go The Whiskey, The Troubadour, The Roxy and to actually be playing one of those iconic places, it was like a dream come true for us at the time. So that's why we were seriously like “Hey, this is,” you know, “it doesn't get any better than that.”

 

LPLive: According to a MTV article from 2002, Relative Degree rehearsed for a year and wrote 12 original songs. How many of those were played at The Roxy? Do you remember any titles?

 

We never really got into the names. I mean, we had a set list for sure. Again, this is like 25 years ago, so I just don't recall any of the song names, unfortunately. For the longest time, it's not like it really mattered. We were a one show band, you know? Unfortunately, from the names of the songs, stuff like that, no, don't have any of that.

 

LPLive: Why did the band break up after The Roxy show?

 

I don't know, it was weird. I think we just decided to take a pause after playing it. We definitely reached our goal of playing The Roxy, so I think just ultimately that wasn't the… Honestly the stuff that we were goofing around with Mike at near the end part of Relative Degree was honestly more like where the band was trying to go anyway. We definitely weren't trying to be like a ska band for sure. So I think that's kind of why. And then I just remember that Summer… I think we played in May or something. That Summer Brad and Mark and Mike have been goofing around - and it might have been mainly Mike and Mark goofing around - just at their place over the Summer. I remember Mark bringing it back to me being like “Dude, I gotta gotta show you something” and I got to hear Dialate and Deftest for the first time and just like, you know, mind blown. It was freaking everything we ever would want. And back then it was definitely more separated when you think of the verse versus the chorus and what was rap versus rock. I think Linkin Park did a really good job of merging the two more. But man, it sounded… you know? Even though it was really raw. It was just like a little 4-track or whatever. I still listen to some of that stuff today and it just gives me the chills.

 

LPLive: You mentioned Deftest. Mike mentioned it might be the very first demo of Xero. Do you actually remember what it sounds like?

 

Yeah. Here, just one second. And I don't know if I could play the whole thing for you, but I'll maybe give you a little snippet. Would that be cool? Because, again, I didn't write the song but… So let's see.

 

 

That is the Deftest that I guess everybody's been… I didn't realize that had been a big deal.

 

LPLive: How do you still have those tracks?

 

I think I just uploaded to the computer. So it's funny, even the names were kind of like “track one,” “track two.” That’s any of the stuff that I did ever have, at least on the computer, and it took me a while to find this. It's funny, I didn't have the files for a little bit on this computer and I was looking for it after just because, you gotta remember it's probably been 15 years since I even really spent much time thinking about Relative Degree. So I went into the garage trying to find, like “Man I gotta find these sets somewhere.” Like, “It's gotta be here somewhere.” And I have a family and four kids now, so it's buried underneath the toys and all that stuff. But yeah, so I found an old laptop and I was like “I wonder if this has anything on it.” I'm still running Windows 7, like old school. Good old computer. And yeah, those files are on it.

 

LPLive: Do you remember the Xero songs Dreamer and Weight? They were supposedly on a tape with Rhinestone.

 

I have a couple other tracks. I don't know if they are those songs. Here, let me see something. And you said it was after what?

 

LPLive: They were supposed to be with Rhinestone, in the same tape.

 

And some of this stuff's kind of mixed in together because, you know. So like Pictureboard, which I don't think… Again - and just kind of bringing up the name point again - when we were working with this stuff, and Mike might have been more than us, but the names were always kind of like an afterthought of the song. We didn't start writing this thing being like “This is gonna be the name.” But here, let me do one more.

 

 

The breakdown of that song is pretty freaking sick too. With 30 or 40 sections left in the track it gets kind of hairy. It's cool.

 

Note: This song was in the first demo Dave Garrett received from Mark Wakefield. The tracklist included Dialate, Deftest, this song and Stick N Move.

 

LPLive: Are you still in contact with anyone from the band?

 

Those guys are super hard. I gave up a while ago. Super tough to get in touch with. Except Mike, pretty much none of them are on social media for the most part or if they are it's quasi social media. It's funny, actually, after the band I actually ran into Dave, into Phoenix, in Vegas and they end up giving me tickets to one of the shows because this is after I lost touch and once the band goes big it's like… They probably have fans and stuff like that trying to reach them and I'm not trying to be this stalker guy, you know? If things are meant to be, it's meant to be. And I ran into them in Vegas and they happened to be playing a show at the Long Beach, I think it's Long Beach convention center. So Dave invited me to show there and that's kind of cool because going backstage and actually introducing some of my newer buddies to them was kind of the closure for me that I kind of needed, honestly. Because it's kind of weird playing with them and then all of a sudden not. And then blowing up so much, it was definitely kind of an adjustment for me for sure.

 

Note: Dave was at the Projekt Revolution Tour show at Long Beach Arena in Long Beach, California on February 22, 2002.

 

LPLive: Were you still in touch with them when they blew up?

 

No. Listen, no. I definitely was in touch with them while they were Xero for sure. They'd even played a show at the fraternity house that we were in for… or that Mark kind of was in for like a semester. So they played a show there that was badass on a Halloween. That was pretty cool. Also, Mike and Anna… Anna went to Cal. State Long Beach and so there was a sorority that she was a part of and - with keeping sorority names out of it and stuff - it was kind of cool to see. And I don't know if they had met before, but definitely afterwards those two kicked it off pretty good, so that was definitely cool to see.

 

Note: The show was at the CSULB TKE fraternity house.

 

LPLive: We were informed you actually played with Xero for a while before Phoenix joined the group. Do you remember when this happened and for how long you were in the band?

 

I don't remember the exact time. So it could have been… I think it was just the Winter time after Relative Degree had broken up because definitely the Summer after Relative Degree broke up is when Mark introduced me to the music that him and Mike put together. So I think it was that next Winter that we started practicing there. I don't remember the exact dates. I didn't have any part specifically in renting the studio or anything like that. But at some point Mark had asked me if I wanted to help him. They were trying to put some of these songs together for potentially some A&R people to see. So it was kind of bad timing for me too because I had only practiced there a couple times and I had… So originally when I first went to college, I went to play water polo. So I had stopped water polo because music started taking up so much of the time, and I played a pickup game of water polo and broke my two fingers. So my pinky and my ring finger, unfortunately on the hand I actually pressed down on the fretboard, so it was just not great timing for me.

 

LPLive: Where did you rehearse with Xero? Was it at the Hollywood Rehearsal Studios on Hollywood Boulevard and Vine Street?

 

Yeah.

 

LPLive: Why didn't you stay in the band?

 

I think it honestly was the timing with me breaking my fingers. Them being so close, you know? I think Jeff Blue was a little influential in that too. And this is just an opinion, I don't know for sure. But Mark kind of mentioned to me that “Hey, it's Jeff had kind of said it's only your sound as long as you're the first to radio with it.” Like, “If someone else comes out with it, you guys are just a follower.”

 

LPLive: Basically it was Jeff trying to push for a quicker release and with you breaking your fingers, that would put them behind on the schedule he had in mind?

 

Something like that, yeah. And then, that's my understanding of the whole thing. And like you know, Brad and Phoenix obviously knew each other from college so, I mean, they were good friends and I think just the timing. Because Dave was in a band back then and I think just kind of timing hadn't worked, and I think just kind of between the stuff happening with my fingers, I think Dave's availability all of a sudden opened up and the rest is history. And just so you know, Phoenix is a hell of a lot better bass player than me. I mean, I'm okay, but I think for Linkin Park fans it was probably a good thing that it went that way. Just they got better quality music because of it.

 

LPLive: Have you played any shows or showcases with Xero?

 

No. Not with Xero, no. We had played for some people and I forget if it was Jeff Blue who we actually played for. We played for some people, so I guess you call it a showcase. I mean, it was in the studio and we had some people come to the studio to hear us, but that was about it.

 

LPLive: Were any Relative Degree songs repurposed for Xero?

 

No. I wish, because maybe I would get some royalties for myself. Because that's the thing, even though I played, I didn't write any of the songs for Xero. They brought it. So, you know. Mark's in a pretty good spot. I mean, I couldn't be more proud of Mark. I remember when Adrenaline from Deftones came out and we would listen to that like non-stop, and later on System of a Down. And to see that he actually manages… Can you even imagine that? Seriously, just the stick-to-it-ness that these guys have, to chase their dreams, you know? They were really on purpose. I don't think a lot of kids in their 20s are as focused as they were on actually going after their dreams. But man, to see Mark actually doing that is unbelievable and, honestly, if there was for me one biggest regret… That guy was one of my best friends and to lose touch, it was probably the biggest thing. So if anything, maybe this thing helps, you know? I and I know he's not big on social media and I'm not gonna be a stalker and try to find him or anything, but if some good came out of this, would be cool if somehow reconnected with him for sure.

 

LPLive: Was Mark Wakefield already working with band management in 1998 or did he only start after leaving Xero?

 

No, he started right after that. And I don't know the exact reasons for him leaving, but I think everything worked out with him being able to do what he does so well.

 

LPLive: Do you play on the Xero cassette demo or any of the other Xero songs that are out there?

 

Not on the Xero. If I ever find the Relative Degree, that would be priceless to me. If anybody has that, that would be… I have a feeling it's not out there, or it's in someone's closet or melted somewhere. That would be pretty cool for me to have, for sure. But yeah, no.

 

LPLive: Who might have that?

 

If anybody would, probably Mark. Maybe Brad. Maybe Rob. I don't know because the reality is when they're doing Linkin Park, they're just focused on creating new stuff. They're probably not in the looking back stage yet. Maybe they spend more time there now potentially. But I know just when you're in the creative process, you're not, you know? You're about the present, you're about how you want to move forward, not focusing much on the past yet.

 

LPLive: Many years ago a drummer named Scott Belsha claimed on his MySpace biography that he played for Xero but we were never able to contact him to hear his story. Do you have any recollection of him or someone other than Rob playing drums in the band?

 

It definitely… Well, I shouldn't say definitely because up until the point I was playing with Xero, Rob was probably in it, but we had a drummer Scott. I don't know, I don't remember the last name. That Mark and I had played with in Long Beach before ultimately recommending that “Hey, I got this drummer back at Calabasas that freaking is…” So maybe pre-Relative Degree because definitely we jammed with a drummer a couple times before Relative Degree named Scott, but I don't remember his last name. Maybe that's where… Yeah, cause if all of a sudden he played with Mark I could see him saying “Hey, I played with the guys from Xero” or whatever and there's a chance he could have been at some of the parties or whatever and heard Xero in the early days or whatever. But definitely we had a drummer named Scott before Relative Degree, after Karma.

 

 

LPLive: Do you have any information about shows from Relative Degree or Xero to contribute to our live guide? Any shows that stood out for you or maybe shows we're missing?

 

The fraternity house, that was an epic show, you know so that was the Halloween, probably had to be like 98, you know that Xero played at Cal State Long Beach at a fraternity house on elm street back in the day. What songs did they play? Stick N Move, Esaul. Did they ever go into what the name Esaul is all about for the song, have they ever touched that? That was actually one of Mark's roommates in college so Esaul is famous now. Even though they kind of changed the name over time of that song. Yeah, was one of his roommates. Cool guy.

 

LPLive: As you said, names weren't the priority back then.

 

Dude, they absolutely were not and so that's the funniest thing when you’re… And then, honestly, and you can't even hear it in a lot of the early stuff. So the number of times we'd even morph a song from its original state, it didn't always stay the exact same song. You took what you like from it, you kind of continued to play with it until you felt was just right. So that was the thing with that band, it felt like we were never done. To the point, to even where we were ready to put names to stuff. I think we… Even with the setlist, because, obviously, I for sure remember that we had a setlist. What was on it, for the Relative Degree show anyway. But the reason I can't recall the names is because… And it was funny, Brad would just say “The song that's in…” Like, “We play…” So a lot of times we describe songs by the sound of it more than the name of it.

 

LPLive: You mentioned Stick N Move. I remember I read somewhere that was always the one that stood out in live shows, that always made the crowd go wild. Do you remember that?

 

Yeah, Stick N Move. Definitely. Just one of the things I think Mark did really well is just his ability to… You felt kind of the angst and the distortion he was able to get out of his voice and stuff too. So when he screamed on certain things, it was like you could feel it and I think a lot of people related to it, you know? He was just able to vocalize it where a lot of people can't.

 

LPLive: Did you continue to pursue a music career after Karma and Relative Degree disbanded or did you move on to something else?

 

For a while I didn't touch the bass at all. It actually took me a little bit to kind of move on to be honest. So I think I kind of disconnected from music for a while, just because it was hard for me. I mean, the guys were my buddies. Went from us practicing all the time to not seeing them. It's a big life adjustment and thank god I had other stuff going on too. I was going to Cal. State Long Beach and had plenty of friends there too. So it was kind of able to help me keep my mind off that stuff.

 

LPLive: Were you still in touch with the band when Chester joined?

 

The only time… And it's funny, so they played a show, obviously Linkin Park did, at the Westminster BestBuy and I actually ran into Chester one time there when he was shopping. And this is before I had even ever met him, so I kind of introduced myself to him because I didn't really know Chester. But that time that I ran into the guys in Vegas, where Phoenix gave me the tickets, the backstage passes and stuff. Then I was able to go back there and talk with all the guys and it was kind of cool. Brad and Rob were kind of poking fun and having a good time talking about me to Chester, so that was a special moment. Definitely kind of connected the pieces for me and, like I said, it kind of gave me the closure that I needed, especially with the guys who kind of took over the band. How gracious they were. To see Chester and Phoenix kind of take it. And the cool thing is when you're working on that stuff in the early days and you see it kind of move on to honestly be like my absolute favorite band in the world. It's cool to kind of see the early stuff morph into that.

 

LPLive: I think it's my favorite part of digging Xero era stuff because, as you said, I love seeing that progress from Xero to becoming one of the cute biggest bands of the 21st century.

 

Yeah, it was fun. I mean, we did some fun stuff, man. I remember one time, so we definitely liked Rage Against the Machine for sure. I remember, I think this was right before, right before our show at The Roxy. If I can place it right, don't quote me on that, I think it is, but Rage Against the Machine played a show at Cal. State Dominguez Hills at the Velodrome and we all went together. And it was a free show and Mark and I literally waited out at Ticketmaster for like… I swear it was like 12 hours overnight to get these free tickets to go see Rage. And dude, to see with the guys and have, you know? That was unbelievable. That was an amazing show too if you… I don't know if there's much live recordings, but that was to me one of the best Rage shows ever

 

LPLive: Is there any other interesting story you'd like to share about your time with Relative Degree or the Linkin Park members?

 

I think the gods just smile down on us. I mean it's kind of cool to know that I hopefully played a little part in it right. If Rob would have never met those guys, you know? It's cool to know how it went. But yeah, just the fun of a whole bunch of young guys cracking jokes and… I mean, you saw their humor. It's always been like that. So we just had a lot of fun, man. The amount of jokes and the amount of… Just cracking each other. And from the creative process with them, was really cool. Just how we just start with a drum beat or a bass line and just kind of build it up and that probably, like, the process. I'll always remember. It was just fun and organic and just really good times.